Be, Become, Then Do Episode 64 Andrew Fox CEO Cultural Clarity

Andrew Fox has a long list of academic achievements that he is proud of however he doesn’t display them on his wall. He says he feels that it is the person, not the credentials that are really at the core of cultural clarity.

There are so many beautiful nuggets of common sense on how to behave in a genuinely caring way. Respecting a person’s views and beliefs and taking the time to be interested in the person.

I hope you enjoy this insightful conversation with Andrew Fox.

Andrew Fox

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Transcript

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Andrew Fox 0:00

And um, the first thing he said was he looked us all in the eye and he said to be, to become and then to do, and of course, being Hispanic, he said that in North America the culture is to do hope to become, and maybe one day to be. And he said a perfect example is Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley, Marilyn Munro, Amy Winehouse River Phoenix, and he listed off a ton of celebrities that very sadly, are no longer with us who could do marvelously. Ernest Hemingway, one of the most prolific authors, but very sadly, took his life, amazing individuals that could do a great deal but never were given the opportunity to become so they didn't know how to be.

Steve Sandor 0:52

My guest today is Dr. Andrew Fox, CEO, and founder of Cultural Clarity. Andrew has a PhD from the Theological Seminary, is an international speaker and an author and consults and coaches in the fields of education, business and leadership. Andrew works across many industries and sectors with a common theme of helping organizations to become healthy and productive towards effectively reaching their audience, clients, and community, and we'll dive into that whole conversation. Andrew originally hailed from the UK and has spent over 20 years in the United States, and you'll get a sense of that from his accent. He's now currently based in Georgetown, Texas. Andrew, welcome to the Inspiring Business Podcast.

Andrew Fox 1:41

Thank you, Steve for having me here. Yeah,

Steve Sandor 1:44

you're welcome. Um, Evening over there in Texas. You said it was 75 degrees. Um, you know,

Andrew Fox 1:50

it's crazy. 75 degrees in December. In Texas, the grass doesn't know whether to turn green or stay brown. Um, the allergy season has started two months early. It's crazy, man. But that's the world we live in.

Steve Sandor 2:05

that it describes the last three years, doesn't it? Yeah, it certainly does. Anything can happen. Um, look, we'll, we'll get into the, um, Service or the, you know, the solutions that you provide your clients. I'd like to really dig into that because the, there's some very interesting stuff that, in a conversation that we've had previously. So I'd like, I'd really like to dig into that but before we do that, perhaps you could just give the listener, um, a brief summary of, you know, you, you're in the u you, you came from the uk, you're in the States. How did that all happen? And, where are you and what are you doing?

About Andrew Fox

Andrew Fox 2:42

You know, Steve, my life has been summarized by my colleagues as the guy that comes in through the window instead of the front door. In other words, my resume, um, my. The official way of doing things has never been my way. Um, not by choice, but just by accident. And so reputation and building genuine friendships and networks, being recommended and referred, it leads you to another room, another season of life, another phase of life, um, from the sublime to the ridiculous. And, you know, uh, from the large to the small and the large would be relocating from the UK in 1999 to the us Um, where I picked up, uh, uh, my first master's degree in leadership, I earned that. And then a second master's degree actually in biblical interpretation. And then, uh, I went on to get a PhD in intercultural communication from a seminary. Um, and then I topped that up with a bunch of stuff from Harvard. Now, all of those accomplishments are in a draw somewhere in the house. They're, they're not in my office wall, so they only mean something to me. But I I did appreciate that the United States likes its accomplishments, it's medals, it's achievements, it's awards, it, that's what Americans like, you know, they get a, they get, you know, an award for just about anything. So, Those things mean something to the context that I'm in, and they help me move forward in these different seasons and different times of life, uh, that you get introduced to by others. So communication's always been my, my baby. Um, I was, uh, uh, a pastor in England and um, when I moved to the United States, I continued that and then I came out of that into the academic world, then into the business world. And so what I do right now is look back in my fifties and, uh, I work with, uh, corporations. I work with higher education and I work with the large churches cuz they're the three areas I've been employed in. So it's, it is contributing back to all these different seasons that I've been through and, uh, life's a blast journey now. My dad, my dad was hired as a young man, changed jobs once. and retired in his second job that, you know, I, I, I, I'd rather be dead than do that and I love my dad to bits, but I love the variation and the opportunities and the adventure of, uh, different things throughout life as long as of course it cash flows and you, you make money from that. So that'll be a synopsis of me, Steve. Um, sounds like a, a falling mess, but I'm, I'm, you know, it, it sort of sounds, I'm enjoying.

Steve Sandor 5:33

It sort of sounds missionary ish. Um, you know what, so when you, when you left, um, the UK and you went to the, the States, that was for work, if, if I understand that correctly. You, you, well, yeah. I was a, I was an opportunity, yeah.

Andrew Fox 5:50

I was a pastor. I was a vicar in, in the uk, a church in Washington that was failing badly, wanted me to, uh, take up their lead role as their vicker, their pastor. So I. Turn the whole, um, organization around. Of course, that's never single-handedly, that's always with other people. Yeah. But that gave me a taste for turning things around to be prosperous, fruitful, uh, impacting, uh, flourishing, let's say. And, and that's the remain with me ever since. And I'll tell you something, there is nothing harder than leading a church, whether it's Catholic, Protestant, or any of the other denominations, because no one has to be there. No one has to give you a dime in the offering play. No one has to listen to what you say. So you have to be really, really genuine and build on reputation, and I enjoyed that as well. So later on in life now, that kind moral, ethical world that it should be. I'm not saying it is all the time, but it should be as carried with me as part of a reputation that you, you, you're dependable, you, you're trustable. And I don't take that lightly with every new person I meet. The ball is in my court to earn that trust um, and again, I love that too. Take nothing for granted.

Steve Sandor 7:13

That's great stuff. I was wondering whether there, well, what were the lessons that you learnt when you came across to that parish and you know, you had to turn the, turn it around as a bit, let's call it a business. I always like to talk about the mistakes, cuz everybody loves talking about their, their successes right. And we love hearing about that because they're motivational and they're inspirational and, you know, my business is called inspiring Business. That's what I like to do. But I, but I, I'd really like, you know, is, was there one or two like mistakes that you made that enabled you to become the success that you are today?

Mistakes made in my 30's

Andrew Fox 7:58

I think the first thing that comes to mind comes from my thirties where of course you, you're married, you, you've, you're starting to have or you've had your kids, and you really start to take yourself seriously. But, um, in the professional world, it's very different than a private domestic life. Your children, and especially your wife, is a measure of mortality and maturity. And of course, in a professional world, you know, you walk into a room and everyone's polite and you are polite to them and respectful, and there's, you know, you are valuing people, but when you go home, they really know what you like. And so I think in my thirties, I took myself a little too serious and, and then what I needed to do looking back was stop and just laugh at myself both professionally and domestically. Cuz you're not all that, you know, uh, you, you, you, you're not what you think you are. So I said that's the first thing. The second thing is don't panic. I, I, looking back again in my thirties and early forties, not to panic about money as much as I because it is the most expensive time of your life, um, you know, where you've not paid much off your mortgage, you're raising your kids and, and that's expensive. Couple of cars and so on and so forth. And it's just really expensive. Now my kids are adult. They're 21, 23 and 26, and largely independent of me now. And so, you know, I make more money now. I save more money now. Um, so I would say that would be the second thing is don't panic about money when you're growing a family. Um, you know, and, and at that time in life, when everyone's driving the best car, going on the best vacations, living in the best houses, you know, um, ask yourself how much debt they're carrying at the same time. I mean, now I own four homes, um, you know, while invested, you know, and I'm not saying that as a boast, but in answer to your question, looking back, I, I, I think I panicked less about money because that will come just with hard work. They're the two things,

Steve Sandor 10:21

and that's a, like, I, I relate to that. You, you know, that thirties is when you, you know, the opportunities come to you and you want, and you want to take them as much as you possibly can. And you, I, I think. it's a bit, you know, it's, it's hard not to take yourself serious too seriously. Well, at least in our generation, I don't know. You know, that, that my, my daughter is 30 now and you know, they've got a son, uh, her and a partner. We've got a son and, you know, the challenges of, of buying a house and, you know, it's a different situation, slightly different situation. So I can understand how, They are worried about the future. Right. Um, and, and they're not panicking. They're, you know, they're very, they've got their level head, so they're, they're going about it in a reasonably, you know, logical way to solve that, that particular problem. But I can understand, you know, cuz I felt like that, like you, you know, you just go take yourself far too seriously. Yep. I think because, We probably, there's a lot of hubris there. Do you, would you, would you say is that, you know, we, we can't be wrong. We because we're so good at what we do and, and no one can tell us what we're, you know, no one can tell us that we're wrong.

Andrew Fox 11:37

Just to put it bluntly, you know, there's an arrogance that comes with it.

Steve Sandor 11:41

Is that, does that, i. Can we drill down a little bit? Is it, is it arrogance because you need to be arrogant in that situation and that, is that arrogant, confident, or is it arrogant? No. At all.

Is it confidence or arrogance

Andrew Fox 11:56

No. I, I would say confidence, especially for a man, um, you need it, period. And, and it is it growing throughout your life. But I would say it would be an arrogant verbal rather than a, an attitude. Right. I, I to to know that you know, that you know something because you have the evidence for it, because you got the wherewithal, the backup, and you know, you got the, the stuff to back at what you're saying. Most of the time there's no need to say so just get on with it. But I think the arrogance for me was to say so, you know, not just, not just get on and do something, but get on and do something and tell people and again, looking back, little embarrassed. Well, more than a little embarrassed. And, um, you know, I would say the arrogance is, is for me was more in, in verbalizing things, I mean, we must never live around people's expectations. We, you know, uh, you know, family is everything. to be true to yourself. Um, never live for the opinions of everyone else. Um, and I guess with age. There is a, you know, some people say you mellow. Um, I'd rather say you get a different perspective of things. So for instance, let me give you an example. If I'm impressed by someone, by their candor, by their presence, by their, uh, yeah, their simple presence in their, the way they carry themselves. I don't need to read some kind of advertisement about that guy or that girl. I'm smart enough, I'll go and make an inquiry. And I think if we back off and just let human beings, um, have a perspective on each other and leave it to them to make further inquiry, of course we need information out there. Um, it would kill the self-promoting arrogance, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm built like a rugby player. Stick me next to you

Steve Sandor 14:04

because you're six foot, you're six foot something, aren't you? You're six foot six or something.

Andrew Fox 14:08

Six foot 3, 2 50 pounds. Shaven hair You know, I've always been like a brick wall. Um, um, you stick me next to a Japanese sumo wrestler and I'm the poster child for a good diet, right? Does that look stick me next to a British soccer? Um, I'm an advert for a heart attack, you know? Yeah. And the perspective again, you see is, is context and perspective. Um, you know, so looking back, I would say that was the arrogance with me is verbalizing things. But the older you get, you get a different perspective, which keeps your mouth shut.

Steve Sandor 14:48

And, we'll, we'll get to talk about, you know, the, the businesses that you serve and the solutions that you provide, but, is it in that process were you looking for validation of the knowledge that you had or were you looking for to, to become, um, you know, to, to compete if you like, in that, uh, in that world of, you know, Life, business, life, whate, whatever, however you wanted. Um, you know, whatever the experience was. And so therefore it's this, um, you know, there's this aggression towards I know what I know, and, and here's that confidence, or there's that un uncertainty of, you know, I, I sort of, I, I'm trying to appear as though I'm, I'm knowledgeable and I'm saying this, but really what I'm looking for is validation where do you, I, I mean maybe o observational now of, of, you know, where we're at today and the behaviors that you see from, from business leaders cuz you work with, you know, you work with a lot of business leaders, so what, what are you seeing in that space?

Andrew Fox 15:59

I think validation's always part of corporate life. And, um, you know, going back to when I was in parish life, um, you know, the first thing I did as I met with the board, um, in Washington and I said, uh, I, I want you to give up that parking space following for, for the vicar, for the pastor. I want you to give up all the privileges that I have and I'll park anywhere in the parking. I'll come in the front door. There's no special door for me. And that really w it built reputation. Um, you know, so there's surface things you can do, but America, and I guess all the West is very competitive anyway and I would say a healthy competitive nature is good because you've always got someone that will do what you do, but do it better and for less, um, in any, uh, field or expertise. but you know, to your question or to your comments there, there's an author, and I love books. Obviously. I'm sitting in a library of 4,000 books right now. Yeah.

Steve Sandor 17:06

For those people who will see this on video, that, that, that is not a, a a, a, um, screen, um, shot, uh, that, that's actually books,

Andrew Fox 17:16

a large room of books. But, um, there's an article called John Eldridge and uh, he wrote, uh, several books and he said, every has an adventure to live, a battle to fight, and a woman to love. Now I tend to agree with that and um, he said, growing from boyhood to manhood, you always need an older man to validate you. So, um, it might be a football coach at college, it might be a school teacher in grade school. Uh, if you go to a church, it might be a youth pastor or next door neighbor, your uncle, or preferably your Dad you know, from the first time you do everything, from the first time you, you learn to walk. The first time you catch a ball, the first time you do, you bring a grade, a home on a paper, you, you bring home your first girlfriend. An older man has gotta validate and say you've got what he takes. And the first time you catch a fish, you know, and an older man says, Hey, that's really cool you got what he takes, or you score a goal, or whatever. And Eldridge says, as men, that is the haunting question like Scrooge, you know, the ghost of Christmas pass. That, that haunts us throughout our life and if there is a season in our life when no one is saying you've got what he takes, we are stuck there. So let's, let's say in our thirties, we are stuck there cuz no one's validating us. We then enter our forties, but we're still in our thirties, then our fifties and sixties. But we're still a kid in our thirties and and that hole needs to be filled. So for me, Steve, and I know we'll get to it, but with the people I work with, it is so important that I bring value to who they are, even though there may need to be an exit strategy for some of them to leave the corporation. Help to find a place in another corporation. Um, it doesn't mean say they're wrong. It means to say they're wrong in their job, and if they stay in that job, they're just gonna go nowhere. So every man needs validation, which is not wrong. We live in a competitive world, but as older men, if we can look at the younger men and genuinely and sincere, Just a passing comment in the hallway saying, great presentation um, or in a parking lot, you know, um, you did real good work today. Or, wow, you're number one this month. Or, man, you got a gorgeous girlfriend. Just something that will make that young man feel like King Kong on the Empire State Building and beat his chest for a moment. I know that sounds very childish this is the world of men in the corporate world and in Paris life, church life, and in higher education that we need our validations. Um, you know, so as long as we maintain that and we're not overplaying it, you know, so I shave my head because I've got very little hair on my head. And, uh, but if somebody said to me, um, you know, you know, it's a pity you don't have any hair or anything like that. It'd be like, that's not really validating anyone, is it? But if they said, Hey, for a white boy, you make that look real good, then that's validating someone. But I'd be careful on saying white boy

Steve Sandor 20:43

Yeah. Oh, we, we, we, um, yeah. We'll, we. We had a conversation before we came online about political correctness. We, we, we, we might just skirt around that, um, not skirt around. We, yeah, we, I'm happy to go down that conversation, but, um, yeah, you, we, we do have to be careful these days, don't we? There's, there's a couple things I'd I, I'd like to drill down in is the, you know, you made that comment when we're talking to the board, uh, a, a parish and you said you didn't want the, the car park and from what I, for that for me is, is, um, demonstrating humility. And on the other side of humility is ego, right? So there's that balance between between those two. I'd like to come back to the concept of the validation, uh, and you know, how one, as a leader of business, of a business, how one could go about demonstrating that to support their staff, cuz our listeners and small business owners typically. I'd also like to, um, I'd also like to talk about the role of women in business and because we've been just talking about men, um, uh, at this point. So, you know, we're. How can we, how can we, um, support that because there's differences between men and women. Yep. Sort of just getting back to that, the humility and ego. How, how does one balance that so that you demonstrating a level of humility? But retaining the level of respect that you need, um, to be able to be that leader. And not parking your ego, but holding it in in such a way that it doesn't prevent you from being the leader that you need to be to lead the, you know, the flock if you like.

Where Ego and Humility rise and fall

Andrew Fox 22:44

Well, that's a very good question, Steve. I, I think my first response to that would be the personal private person is where ego and humility rise and fall. So for me, um, I'm an early riser and I'll go on my back porch and, um, of course for me, you know, I'll read some scripture, um, I'll think I'll meditate. I journal, have Arun of a coffee, of course, to keep me awake. And uh, I also read other things like CS Lewis Love, CS Lewis, anything by CS Lewis, JRR Tolkin, or Charles Williams. or Owen Barfield, they, they are the main inklings of Oxford. Um, you know, I read their novels or, or even the, the Children's story Wind in the Willows by Kenneth Graham that CS Lewis said is, there is no such thing as a children's book. If you read it as a child and you enjoyed it, and you pick it up and read it as an adult, you will see a different world and still enjoy it. So before I turn on my phone, before I answer text and email, make telephone calls, have meetings. It's just me, me, myself, and I. And you know, years ago when I did my masters in leadership, um, a little old Hispanic professor that we had, he walked into the room. I mean, this guy was no more than five feet tall. I'm six foot three. And, uh, he made his way across center of the room, like a hobbit, you know? And um, the first thing he said was he looked us all in the eye and he said to be, to become and then to do, and of course, being Hispanic, he said that in North America the culture is to do hope to become, and maybe one day to be. And he said a perfect example is Michael Jackson, Elvis Presley, Marilyn Munro, Amy Winehouse River Phoenix, and he listed off a ton of celebrities that very sadly, are no longer with us who could do marvelously. Ernest Hemingway, one of the most prolific authors, but very sadly, took his life, amazing individuals that could do a great deal but never were given the opportunity to become so they didn't know how to be. And so, He then reversed it and said, you will be successful if you first learn how to be who you are, then become, and then to do something never left me. Probably because he was five foot tall, Hispanic, little old Hispanic professor, softly spoken, but he got us eating out the palm of his hand, and I've never forgot that, you know um, my, when my son got married, um, Christmas, I officiated the wedding ceremony cuz I, I've got the credentials and, uh, his beautiful bride already had a daughter and there was a moment in the seminary where she came and joined them, bride and groom on the, uh, on the platform there and, uh, my son was gonna make a pledge of Val to his wife's daughter, you know, as he's adopting but I'm adopted too. I was adopted in 1968 and in that moment, Steve, it became very emotional for me that my father adopted me and now my son is adopting this girl and in that moment I was arrested. In a good way. In a good way. But I handled it because, and this sounds arrogant cuz I know who I am and that's not because of achievements, accomplishments. So on the back porch, A cup of coffee reading, I pray, I meditate, I journal, I read other stuff, and then I start with my day. I did it this morning, I'll be doing it tomorrow morning. So that balance between e ego and humility for me arises and falls privately in your personal life, you know? And so I think if we get that right and we have no skeletons in our closet as such. We've all got things we're embarrassed of. We've all said things we should never have said and done things we should never have done every one of us. But if I'm a real crook, if I'm a twisted, you know what, you know, and I put on this facade professionally, it will bleed out and it will come out. And so I would say that's the, uh, I, I would say for me personally, it's, it rises and falls in your personal.

Steve Sandor 27:53

I love my job. I love, I, I love being in the front row seat of these types of conversations and hearing it from the, from the person. Cause there was, that was a drop mic moment for me. Um, you know, there's a couple of things I've got pairs on, you know, on, on. Um, just thinking about it, I, you know, that whole centering oneself in the morning, um, you know, before you do anything. And then I, and I think it, you know, I'm gonna give myself a challenge cuz I don't do that. I do some of it, you know, I wake up in the morning and have my routine and then I come in here and then I do my. you know, then I do my me time, but I'm gonna flip it. Thank you very much for the, for the tip. I'm gonna flip it and, and for the next 30 days, have that habit of doing nothing but me time. Um, so I, you know, I put that challenge out to the listener as well, to, you know, see, try it, try it and see if it makes, uh, you know, give us some, give us some feedback on, on whether it actually has made an impact in your life. So thank you very much, Andrew for that. That that was, we can finish now. Thank. Uh, um, yours, the, the, so, the, the other like, I guess, uh, not a segue, but, uh, the next, um, part of that is that mentoring, and you, I mean, you, you talked about, um, you know, being kind. I, the way I interpret it was, you know, being kind to the people who are around you, giving them a, you know, words of encouragement. Um, a, um, Validation that we talked about. You know, I, I was fortunate enough that I had a number of mentors who taught me my craft, which is sales. Um, and they took me under their wing and they, you know, taught me how to be effective in in a particular discipline that I had, and I see this now in the current environment where we have all of these LMSs, you know, learning and management systems, and people turn up and here's your phone, here's your computer, here's the l m s, um, you know, everything that you need to know about the organization is here. Good luck. I'll see you in a week. Right? And, and we lose the, we lose the, Uh, human relationship, the intellectual property, the handing over the baton from, from one person to another. We, I think I, I feel as though corporate has lost its way in that space. Um, and I, I, I would like to think that, you know, you and I are making some sort of in way or inroads into changing that type of culture. So could you talk to, uh, talk a little bit about how you, in, you know, um, when you are talking to your clients about their leadership styles and how they go about leading their teams, what are, what are a couple of the key areas that you know that you encourage them to be better at or to improve.

there is nothing new in the world

Andrew Fox 30:59

You know, very little in the world is original, right? I mean, communicating with a pigeon is, is the same as using your, your iPhone. It's all communication. It's just evolved over time. Nothing's original. So I look back to when I was younger and I still remember those people. Men and women. And at my age, now, most of them are no longer with us, but I remember them for two things. Not only did they take an interest in what I was doing to help me, but they took an interest in me as a person. And then when I look back at, you know, the formal higher education season of my life, I remember those professors we're very interested in the subject communication, persuasion, rhetoric, all of those things but they were also very interested in the student, and that's very rare, uh, in the world of academics in the corporate world and in the church world, is to have a leader that is interested in their field, but also interested in you. Um, it's like, you know, you meet people who can write and then you meet people who can speak, and very rarely do you get writers who speak. In fact, if you ever hear your best author that you'd like to read, if they're still alive, you will be deflated because they are not great public speakers. And yet those great public speakers that you hear when you read what they've written, it's like third grade stuff and it's boring. So it's very rare to get a good speaker and a writer, uh, in the same breath. Very rare to get someone who's interested in what you do and who you are uh, and so I've taken what I've benefited from adapted for the corporate world that I'm in right now. Um, and of course you mentioned earlier about men and women, uh, not, you know, we've been talking about men, but just men uh, just men, but, but now men and women. Um, I don't know what it is. I don't know why. Um, but a lady can figure you out very quickly. If you are safe or you are a creep, don't ask me how, but they do. If you know you're safe, you're fine uh, with all propriety, of course, in working with the opposite sex. And in today's world, in all propriety, working with same sex, but it, it reverses back to your own personal and private life. Are you safe? Um, or are you explicit? you know, in your own life. And so to value what someone does and who they are without overstepping that line of over familiarity, that can become inappropriate. You know, so things like, um, if someone has a title, I would always call them by that title. Especially in the presence of others until they redirected me to do otherwise. It doesn't make me a servant and them the master. Uh, it just shows respect. Um, I'm still the kind of guy, um, and I've never ever had a problem with this. If I'm in the room sitting down with another, Or a couple of guys I'm, we're in conversation and the door opens and a lady walks in, I stand up. And it's not that she's inferior or less, but she's unique as a woman compared to a man as a man is to a woman. And I have never in my lifetime been told that I'm inappropriate for doing that. Quite the opposite. It's been well received. So there are certain intuitive behaviors that actually, um, make your communication in the corporate world easier to listen to um, so I mean, we could list out an A to Z of, of appropriate behaviors, but that is a moving target. My father, for instance, um, that was a different world with men and I lean heavily upon being British because in Great Britain, to be a man or a woman in the corporate world is no big deal. It's, it's very American and so when I make it obvious that, you know, we had a queen for over 70 years, uh, one of the best prime ministers next to Winston Churchill was Margaret Thatcher. And then I start listing off all the other great British female successes from sports to religion, to politics and everything. It, it, it's a moot point, um, when they know you're married Um, that makes a difference too. You have a daughter and you admit that your daughter sends you crazy sometimes it, these kind of little tibit vulnerabilities really help, but I think they're intuitive uh, you also mentioned, uh, uh, pronouns and things. Again, if somebody wants to be called them, they, as long as they're informing me, that's what they would like. Uh, if they say, I demand that you do this. Um, I've never encountered that, never encountered that. But if they say, look, you know, I, I, I, I prefer to be called they and them, and then I don't mind doing that. So, again, intuitive, it's, um, I think civil dialogue, um, helps where, I don't know, please inform me or, um, uh, we differ on this but I do see your perspective everyone leaves happy. Civil dialogue is important, but also rhetoric is, I'm not 21, I'm 54. So there are certain givens that come with a British 54 year old living in Texas. They're all intuitive and they fall into two categories of what you're saying, we forgive you because you're British 54 living in Texas and what you're saying we love because you're British 54 living in Texas. But people don't have to consciously think this, they intuitively do that. And so, um, so an example, it's inappropriate to ask if someone's married in the corporate world, however, if they disclose they're taking their wife out to a French restaurant that evening because of their 25th wedding anniversary. You now know. And so that's not intuitive. I would say that would be consciously active. Um, and to remember that and then, uh, maybe make a note of it and the following year, if there's still a client, just say, congratulations on your 26th wedding anniversary. So, um, I don't think any of this is hard to do. We make it hard on ourselves.

Steve Sandor 38:15

so Andrew, what, what I'm hearing there is that it's one and intentional caring. Um, you know, so, so if, if, if I could paraphrase what, you know, what what you were saying there is that, um, when you are in that mentor role, what you are trying to do is you're trying to create a, uh, and, and the term these days is used psychologically safe. They're now talking about social safety, you know, creating an environment. having. 10 years working in the human resource space in Papua New Guinea, albeit, you know, at a different cultural environment. Um, I, um, I, I know how HR departments can get in the way of a organization creating a culturally safe place, right? Because they put so many constraints and compliance onto an organization um, for the right reasons, but the manager is the human resource manager, so the manager of people. Right. And I think there's this ab obligation of responsibility to a department of caring for your people. Yep. And so I, I think what your, your comments and, and sort of. Direction was, you know, if you are civil about how you treat other people and you care for them genuinely with intention, then they can only respond to you in kind. All right. So if you, if you, if your intention is that I, um, an interesting, you were talking about language, um, uh, and you know, talking to people in a particular way. My parentage is Hungarian, and the Hungarian language has a formal and informal language to it. Oh, and I grew up not, uh, my parents didn't teach us Hungarian in the home because of, we were migrants in Australia and migrants were treated unbelievably badly in Australia in the late fifties, early sixties. You know, we were the logs and the refos and you know, speak. Why, why can't you speak English? Well, my father could speak Russian, Hungarian, German, and, uh, French. Right? And he was learning English Um, but, but the, the interesting thing was that when you came into an environment like my, my, all of my uncles and aunties and, and uncles and aunties were family friends. Right? So they weren't necessarily related to you. We spoke in, or the language forced you to speak in a formal way, which was of respect so in a, in a work environment, you would come into a meeting and if you were my client, I would speak to you in a formal way until you told me it was okay for us to speak in the which was the. in which case, okay, now we, now we have that, you know, and that was that, well, now we're friends, now we're buddies. Right? So there's that relationship there. So it's interesting that language, the English language is a really difficult language to, to get those nuances and subtleties of, of how you communicate with each other. So anyway, I'm not,

Andrew Fox 41:35

see, yes, Lewis spoke about that. Um, and of course he, he was a, uh, he was on the faculty of Oxford and Cambridge you know, a very prolific author in his day, and he wrote on this, I, I cannot recall the name of the paper that he wrote, but it was on the b BBC radio broadcast that he read his paper. And I, in essence, it was like, this is, you go into an institution like higher education and there is a hierarchy of the pecking order, but it's not seen on the walls it's not written down, it's not seen on your clothing. It's just a pecking order. And he mentioned that, uh, you know, you've entered a different realm of the hierarchy when you're standing around having a cup of tea holding the saucer with the tea, and the finger is slightly tilted and drink and they nod nothing is said, and then you. you know, you've been included. Every culture has this. Mm-hmm. every single culture has this. So, um, you know, in, in certain circles, uh, for instance with first responders, uh, firefighters, police officers, uh, paramedics, uh, or any branch of the military, if, if someone is giving you a hard time verbal, a little fun name calling and everything that is actually terms of affection and acceptance. But if you did that in higher education, it would be belligerently, rude. Mm-hmm. And so each, each world has its own language, but its own way of using language. So for instance, in the fire department, the more nicknames you that had nothing to do with your real name, the more you are loved mm-hmm. And one day when you're no longer with us, you'll be remembered um, and so, you know, language is important and to, to quickly adapt to the environment you are in or the organization you're in. Like, like for instance, Facebook have a definite language in their organization that is very different than Amazon very different than Netflix or Disney. We don't have time to go into it but when you're in the room with said people to realize what world you're in and how to handle yourself, gender becomes an issue or it doesn't become an issue. Mm-hmm. uh, in the sense of being intentional again. So I love that. I love, I love, you know, having to quickly adapt into different worlds again, but it, my default is British 54 living in Texas. You're forgiven or not forgiven based on that criterion, and you allow people to correct you, which got in front.

Steve Sandor 44:30

So if we can just, um, we, we we're getting to the top of the hour, so, um, I'd, I, I'd really love to, um, drill down into just one more, um, subject and it's, it's a challenging one at the moment because of the political correctness world that we live in. Um, the the need for diversity in, in culture in, in our whole lives. Uh, you know, it's not just individuals need balance in their life. Um, we as a society, we need to be able to have that, um, ability to work, go outside of our echo chambers and experience other, um, you know, other cultures other systems are the lives. I mean, I was fortunate to spend 10 years in Papua New Guinea, right? And, and that is like a, you know, there, there couldn't be anything further from the life that I live currently here in Australia, you know, to, to going and, and seeing village life in the highlands of Garoka, right? So there's, you couldn't get any further. Right. And that, that enriched me. Right. Um, I wouldn't want to live there because I, I'm from here right. But what I experienced there was, was beautiful. And, you know, and, and there was a lot of lessons that I was able to learn from that experience and bring it into the, into the business world in Papua New Guinea. Now, now in Australia, Because I, I addressed it a little bit earlier about, um, you know, the role of women in business um, and is it because, and, and I, I don't, I don't have a formulated opinion on this. I'm still working my way through it cuz I don't work with a lot of women in my world, you know, my clients are mainly, you know, middle-aged to older men who run businesses because that's who they are. Um, so I'm just wondering what your thoughts are of how can we as a business society have this about, and I'm, I'm struggling with the question, as you can tell. Um, and it's not because I want to be politically correct as is. I just wanna, I'm, I'm wondering, I are we, uh, because we speak of men and women, are we then placing those, those, those characters, if you like, into pigeon holes and therefore we viewing them in that light rather than just, you know, in the context of business, they're business owners. So

Should we treat Men and Women differently in Business

Andrew Fox 47:24

I think, I think most of the time, most of the time it is unnecessary to reference men or women or male or female, especially in the world where we live in now, where people identify as many more things than that. Mm-hmm. uh, and that's a conversation for another day. Mm-hmm. but, um, I think in my own experience and my observation of others, if we can have a dialectical approach, what that means is, um, I'm 54, keep mentioning that for a purpose that I get to teach as well in universities, um, as a special guest, uh, in different departments, uh, students that are young enough to be my own children. The dialectical nature is, yes, I have something to teach them, but they also have something to teach me. Now the elephant in the room is I've lived longer on planet Earth than they have so at some point, um, I do know more, or I, I have more experience in something that they already know Now that can't change. But if we have the, let me use the word, we started with the arrogant hierarchy where you work under me or you're a student and I'm your teacher, or I'm your mentor and you're the one being mentored uh, therefore you listen to me. I don't listen to you. That doesn't work in the world we're in. It's dialectical. It, it's, it's, uh, I have a granddaughter that's seven years of age. Um, she has so much to. Um,

Steve Sandor 49:10

you know, honesty is, honesty is amazing, isn't it? it's

Andrew Fox 49:14

so on your office door or on your business card or on your Zoom profile, you might have a certain title, rank, file something, uh, the person you're talking to, uh, it, it is very important that you help them if you feel they are patronized or intimidated to not be by opening up the door if they have something to show and teach Me too. Now in, in that kind of approach, all kinds of stuff can happen. And we've not even touched on gender in doing that. And so I think we can overplay gender by making it the front and center mm. Instead of making it the background noise. Mm. You know, um, and. you know, equality, diversity, and inclusion, you know, again, is another conversation for another day but I'm glad we're talking like that. Mm-hmm. I do think there's been an under reach. Mm-hmm. I also think there's been an overreach, you know, what is the happy ground there? Well, uh, higher education functions different than corporation. Corporations function different large churches and so you can't, you can't cookie cutter one thing for all. Again, it's understanding the environment you're in. Mm-hmm. Um, but I would say the dialectical approach, it works for me. Wonderful. So when a corporation hires me, I will make sure the CEO and their C-suite or their executives, um, fully appreciate that um, my experience with them means that, that they are also teaching me as well. And there's a value to that. So, you know, it breaks down these walls.

Steve Sandor 51:00

Wonderful. Yep. And, and, um, I, you know, again, I think there's a, a, a balance. We talked before we came on online that Damien Andrew, uh, Andrews and I, we, you know, we were talking about political correctness in a, to our long conversation and, um, And I think we zig as long as we're zigzagging our way forward and we are doing it in a respectful way, I think, you know, there is a balance and, and, and I'm hoping that, you know, the context of caring, um, uh, as you, as you say, you know, as universal. So Andrew, how can people get in contact with you?

How to contact Andrew fox

Andrew Fox 51:36

Well, people can go to www.culturalclarity.us, uh, not.com or.org, but us, and, uh, you could take a, a free, uh, five, 10 minute assessment and then you'll get an email from me automated asking you to meet with me on Zoom like this for free at my cost and if you do that, I will give you a code that will give you at least 50% off doing the comprehensive assessment, which will quite frankly blow your mind. Now, I know that sounds arrogant, but it will help you understand your organization if you're the C E O, um, or you're an executive if you're in some leadership capacity. In a corporation business, in higher education or in a church, um, it will tremendously help you and show you where you are low, moderate or high in six dimensions of culture. And, uh, I'll even throw in this book Cultural Clarity that I wrote. I'll throw it in for you no matter where in the world you live, I'll mail you a copy as well. So cultural clarity.us. That's how you can get hold of me. Very

Steve Sandor 52:51

generous offer. Thank you so much. Um, I'll, and we'll make sure that all of that, uh, information is in the show notes for you. Um. My last, uh, question, and I ask this of all my guests, is, what are you curious about?

Andrew Fox 53:08

What am I curious about? More than anything, it is, what is it to grow old and, and have a young mindset. Uh, some people have said it's finishing well. I'm at that tipping point now of my most productive years. I'm curious of what it is to become older, but stay.

Steve Sandor 53:34

Nice. When you work it out, let me know.

Andrew Fox 53:38

I, I think we just observe it in others, and what they do. Oh, all we could. It's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure chatting with you, Steve. It really has.

Steve Sandor 53:47

Yeah. And I thank you Andrew. Really do appreciate it. Uh, really words of wisdom. And, and I've got, I've got one tip that I can, um, Or one habit that I will create over the next 30 days. I'll let you know how I go with that. Um, Andrew Fox, thank you very much for being a guest on Inspiring Business.

Andrew Fox 54:07

My absolute pleasure.

Steve Sandor 54:09

I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Um, both Andrew and I have a similar view of the world, and there's no coincidence that we were introduced to each other because of those attitudes towards business and life. these conversations I have in the podcast are just like children it's really hard to, um, say that one is better than the other because it's like an experience you, I guess you take out of it what you will. But in the the moment, as Andrew was speaking of his daily routine and how it helped him with his approach to his life, it was truly inspirational. And for me it was a mic drop moment right there. my name's Steve Sandor, and there are plenty of additional resources on our website@www.inspiringbusiness.net. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn or Facebook. Thank you for listening to the Inspiring Business Podcast, and my wish as always is to inspire and energize you so you too can make a difference in your and others'.