Episode 2 Have the courage to let go of control - Tim Hyde MD of Win More Clients

Tim Hyde the Founder of Win More Clients. Tim is a growth business strategist an Infusionsoft certified partner and a leading authority in sales and marketing automation for business. He helps business owners help get back time through business automation and training and develops a marketing machine approach.

Tim speaks about how his early childhood days and attitudes about wealth and success can be fun.

He debunks the theory that work has to be hard.

As an innovator in the early stages of the digital age, Tim saw how clients did not understand the relationship between the customer experience they were looking to provide and the delivery of the marketing information.

Many clients saw the campaign as not working when in fact it was just a small part of the whole strategy.

Tim has built a successful international marketing advising business to help the owner to understand the real customer experience and journey.

We go deep into the opportunity cost of time and the importance of cash flow and how business owners are challenged to value their time.

We drill down into the business case for business automation and when to include this is needed to manage and set client expectations.

Contact Tim for a complimentary discussion.

https://winmoreclients.com.au/connect

Stephen Sandor CEO Inspiring Business
Inspiring Business website

www.inspiringbusiness.net

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Transcript

Welcome to inspiring business with your host, Stephen Sandor, the podcast that inspires business owners to find their genius and future proof the business's value. 

 Welcome to the inspiring business podcast where we inspire business owners to focus on their genius and create the business that is scalable and ultimately independent of the owner. My guest today is Tim Hyde, the founder of Winmore clients based in Canberra, obviously close to the snowfields. Tim uses the analogy of sport and skiing with the business world. So I'm really looking forward to unpacking that. Tim is a growth business strategist and an Infusionsoft certified partner and a leading authority in sales and marketing, automation for small business. He helps business owners scale and get back more time with digital marketing strategies CRM, automation, automation and training, and develop some marketing machine approach. Really, really appreciate you joining me here today, Tim, and welcome to the inspiring business podcast. 

 Thanks Stephen Great to be here.

 We'll start with you as a six year old, and you started off your entrepreneurial journey with a circus. What the hell was that all about?

 I did actually. I think we will come to business in February different routes and lastly seems to be accidental. When I first moved to Canberra as a young fella, I was fascinated with one book in particular and I'd love to say it was good to great or, you know, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. But no, it was my Uncle Scrooge golden book. One of I can't remember exactly which one but the thing and my distinct memory of that is that Uncle Scrooge who's, you know, Donald Duck's son Donald Duck said Donald Duck's uncle or someone you know, has this, you know, screens, unlimited wealth, big money pit that he dives into. And as a six year old, I thought this looks incredibly fun. And to this day, I still don't know what Uncle Scrooge actually does.

 Other than dive in the buckets of coin.

 I thought this looks awesome. Right? You know, surely you can just dive into buckets of money like I've since learned that diving into piles of coins in particular is not very comfortable. But but fun nonetheless. And I had this connotation with from that, that having in making money was something that was associated with fun and enjoyment. And an I know for many people that they don't have that connotation. They associate wealth and success with hard work. And as you and I both know, that was that was a message that was drilled into us as young men if you work hard, you'll succeed. And that was the that was the message. And as a six year old, I was like, Nah, let us That sounds like a load of crap. And when we first moved to Canberra, I thought wouldn't it be cool, cool idea to invite all the neighbourhood kids around to get to know them. And I'll put on the circus. And I had Apple bobbing and I made everyone dress up an act in my circus and i think i from memory, I charged everyone 20 cents admission. Which way back in 1979 1980 

 I could buy a scooner for 20 cents.

 It was it was a lot of money. Right. And I spent it on two things. My first windfall I guess from from a business venture or from an entrepreneurial venture. I spent it on two things. I spent it on a brass inlaid oak cigar box that I found a trash and treasure. And it was beautiful because it organized on my coins. It was my very own little money pit. And the second thing I spent it on was wonder after school I took a whole dollar and I spent it on one set lollies and I this entire sandwich bag full of one cent lollies it was an old Kara bones and chocolate drops and freckles and red skins and everything. Minties and so on. And I ate the whole packet, whole bag of sugar basically, on my walk home from school. And from that point I was absolutely hooked. That not only was it was fun, and you could stack all your coins up and they look pretty, but you can actually have something that was actually really enjoyable. As a result. Now it might just mean the sugar high. I'll guess we'll never know. But that was the that was the sort of start of my my sort of interest in in entrepreneurship that we could we could turn endeavour into and give people enjoyment in the same time as actually sort of making something from it that in turn gave us enjoyment. And I feel as adults in some cases we've actually lost sight of that in Why do we do what we do. Do and so that was my first one I've done, you know quite a few since I made and sold on wine racks I did door to door sort of sales I did maintenance and I had a I think a more knowing business. What? Yeah, anyway, so then then I found myself going slowly branded in the public service like, I guess so many of us.

 So what was the transition? So you spent some time in, in the public service as you're doing Canberra, obviously. What was the transition for you out of that? And and now obviously, what you're doing is you're helping small business owners. You know, gain the passion. I mean, I yeah, every time we have a conversation, we're always laughing, mainly because of you. Because you brings up so much fun and joy to the, to the party. But what what's driving, you know, what's driving you? What's your passion behind all of that? So how did you get out of the public service? What was the first? That's the first part and then how did you get into doing what you're doing? And why do you do it?

 Well, ultimately, I I made a firstly amount of transition from public service and private enterprise. And I think the thing that I found there was lots of systemization and process with with big government and big corporate. But it wasn't very flexible. It wasn't very innovative. And I would say people around me all the time, almost tied to the, you know, tied to the corporate dollar or tied to the government but not really enjoying themselves and what they did. And it was like you, I think we've been in business for many time. And and we know people, sort of, you know, as employees and particularly in government, a lot of the time that, you know, making get this almost generic, you're not really enjoying yourself, you go to work at nine o'clock, you come home at five o'clock, you completely forget about everything there and you're not really doing a great deal. Now, that's a that's a gross stereotype, you know, a stereotype and generalization. I know. But it does hold true. And stereotypes are true, because that's the norm. And, and I found working in both corporate and government that there was this, there's almost this race towards mediocrity. And that's never sat well with me. That and, you know, on the other side of the fence, I was seeing business owners try and all sorts of things. And I love that, quote, that's attributed, I think, to Steve Jobs that says, you know, we're the crazy ones, we are the ones that that, you know, try to impact the world around us. And I've often found, I think that business owners, you know, without that sort of puzzle map, the puzzle box and all the pieces we often fall short of, of changing that world. And I think the transition for me came in sort of late 90s, where I'd been in government for a little while I was kind of, in a doing my thing, surrounded by a bunch of people that I enjoyed working with, and but the work wasn't very inspiring, at all. And one of my mates, john, at the time came to me and said, Look, I've got this idea for a website. I want to call it slash can. Right? Now, I'll tell you why. Because this, this is late 90s, when Microsoft were kind of getting sort of pulled over the coals for anti competitive practices, we saw the rise of the open source software movement. I was working in software engineering at the time and in project management. And john sort of pulled a bunch of mates from school together and said, I want to create this website called slash can net slash dot was a site in the US that still going to this day, that was talking about technology and coding and open source and, and it was basically this open collaboration forum to talk about, you know, code, I guess. And we thought, wouldn't it be cool if there was a version of this where we could talk about what was happening in Canberra, and that anybody could contribute to? And we didn't really have at that point, there was no social social media wasn't a word that people used, right? We sort of started to see form groups pop up, but there was very specific interest forum. Like you could go on to the technology forum, or the crochet forum or the skiing for more than a gaming forum or whatever view particularly game, but there was never, there wasn't anything that said, Let me talk about a geography and we thought, okay, rather than calling out slash cam, thank God that one didn't last. I call it that we call it we eventually call it the riot act, which was Regional Information Open Talk. Very clear, and also, you know, this idea that you can have this dialogue with other people, of course, the riot act being a piece of legislation that gave the government powers to disband unruly people. Right. And it was common, it's lovely little play on words about being riotous, but also correcting also at correcting I guess public perceptions about thing and gaming giving people this forum, which they could talk about stuff that was interesting to them. And seen one of those lately, yeah, it's like you're on an eight hours a day. So I've managed to beat managed to beat LinkedIn into the social media space by three years, and Facebook by five years, built that up over a period of time, at that stage, I'd transitioned into, into corporate into sort of IT project management sort of work, was building this business on the side. And a lot of the clients we had, we had eyeballs, we were sort of getting 20 million eyeballs a year at that stage, which was a reasonable number, selling advertising the clients. And the thing that I kept finding with those clients is we talked about that, that marketing, maturity, the marketing machine, that a lot of the advertising, we were sending to people's, you know, merging websites, in this digital marketing space, they weren't converting, and they come back and say, well, it the campaign didn't work, I'm gonna go and try Yellow Pages, or I'm going to try TV or something else. And to my coding brain I've gone code doesn't break at the beginning, or at the end, it goes along until it can't get any further instructions, and then it stops. But our perception is that the whole thing is broken. Right, you might get to line 999, out of 1000 lines of code, and that's where it breaks. Now, the outcome is that you don't get the result. But it's only that last step that needs to be fixed. And when I started looking at people's marketing process, I kept seeing the same issues in their business, that they would leave opportunity on the table everywhere, and then complain and say, Look, my marketing is broken, it's not getting me the results I want. But it was only one little component or two little components I needed to tweak in order to move those customers by both deliberately but systematically, along that that customer lifecycle between awareness and, and raving fans.

 And and those were their common with a common themes throughout those, on the break internal breakages with the with the business owners was it? Was it because I didn't do any planning? And think that whole process through or training their staff? Do you have a sense of what I think was?

 Yeah, I think it actually comes back to probably the marketing strategy. And I know, a lot of marketing agents will talk this idea of marketing strategy, but the marketing strategy is always gonna stick on Facebook or mountain ads, or something else. And whenever, and this is your new website, and here's your brand, and away you go. without really understanding, I guess, and I guess, any marketer worth their salt has also taught to their clients around the customer avatar. But we take that deeper and say, okay, what's my customer avatar, and I've got, you know, women between the ages of 35 who wear red shoes and live in southeast Queensland and, you know, read Vogue magazine and you know, country living, let's let's pick something like that. But we're I think those avatars start to fail is they don't really go into once someone, what is the first step that they want to take? And how will they feel when they get there? And once they get to that point, what do we need to move on to the next step, which starts to, I guess, dictates not only the experience we give them, but also the copy and content we might want to put into them that draws them to the next step as well. And these things are missing when we actually start to plan a customer journey. So and marketing for me is the entire customer lifecycle, no sales. I know, we'll talk sales and marketing, let's be controversial sales and marketing. Three different things, right. 

 Yep, absolutely, I'm with you on that.

 But to me, it's just we just exchanging different value. Very early in the process, I'm going to exchange something that you find valuable in exchange for your attention. At some point that value exchange changes, and I want your email address for something that's helping you step further down your customer journey, you know, we get to a point where I'm now going to deliver your product or service in exchange for dollars. And then I mean, exchange, a request for a testimonial in exchange for, you know, some loyalty. And when we start to sort of map it out like that, we actually start to notice some significant parallels between how we should run our business processes, and how we should build business relationships to how we actually build our personal relationships.

 So it takes time for a relationship to be built. Unless it's a you know, a really simple transaction, like you're going to buy a bag of lollies so that with your dollar

 You know, if you go out and you're a high ticket product, which we all do, and you know, go straight out to your customer and say, Hey, how about we should we should have 10? Kids?  Right? Yes, there will be a portion of the market who are ready to buy that today, a very small portion of the market are ready to buy that today. Everyone else, you start failing, right? And if we look at, say, a group of 100, potential ideal customers, and it's not that those 100 don't have the problem that you can solve, it's just not their priority. Today, right. And if we don't, it's up to us to kind of continue to nurture the relationship. Like I, you know, if, Stephen, you're a good looking bloke, if you were to go out tomorrow, and and for, you know, for whatever reason, the a single man again, yes, you could go to 100 women and 100 different pubs and say, Hey, we should have 10 kids. Right? Now, one might say yes, but if you took your time, and being the charming fellow that you are, you got to know, those ladies at a sufficient level of intimacy, then absolutely, maybe down the track, the opportunity would exist with all of them to have 10 children. And that's a fairly extreme example. But I want to illustrate the fact that we we build relationships with one person, we go through some form of onboarding process, which involves an engagement party, a wedding and a honeymoon. And then if we don't nurture the relationship after that, the relationship disappears. And the same thing applies in business, we have a way of attracting people into our world. And that involves yes, Facebook ads, or Google their website, our TV ads, our customer experience, our brand and all that sort of stuff. We have an onboarding experience, when someone says, Yes, I'd like to buy from you. And like, think of the thing of the really big ones you like, or when you buy a house, you delivered a you know, basket with wine and chocolates and stuffing it when you buy a car, they put a big bloody ribbon on it. They're doing that to make the experience memorable and an emotional context. And then they're circling back afterwards to say, Hey, you know, is everything okay? To keep the relationship going on, so that you you remember them? When it comes to making that purchase? Again?

 This all makes perfect sense. So why is it that businesses are in that in such a hurry to make that to make that sale? Or to just go straight for the jugguler, if you like? Or go, you know, go for that, that the 10 Kids straightaway is is there? Is there a practice that has, you know, pervaded into small business that is driving people that way? Or is it just not education?

 Bit a bit of column A bit of column B, I think, I think huge number of business owners come into business with a technical skill set of what it is that they know how to do and know what to do for a customer. But I'm not good at sales and marketing activities. And I would challenge everyone listening to this podcast right now to write down the business that you think you are in. Right now, Stephen, I know you're in, you're in coaching, and you would probably write coaching down and we might have an accountant there. And we might have a copywriter. And whatever else that's listening, you might be a plumber, or whatever, I want you to put a big x through that. Because that is not the business you are in. That is what your business delivers. The business you are in is marketing. And the purpose of your business is to make you a profit, so that you can live the lifestyle that you want to live. To be honest, even customer outcomes are a byproduct of your marketing machine. And if we think about a business like that, it actually starts to change the whole paradigm. The purpose of a business is to move customers from awareness to raving fans. And the byproduct for us is profit. And that's what we go into business for. right because that profit allows us to live the lifestyle that we want to live and create the impact that we want to create.

 And where does the customer value proposition come into that into that sequence?

 Okay, that's part of our marketing machine, what's in it for the customer. It's got to be that when we enormously you know, we get something from them, but they get something as well we help them solve their problem. And if, if at any point during that customer journey, it seems easier to stay where they are then progress along. That's where our bottlenecks start to appear. Right? Because our process says, Hi, Steven, in order for you to make a million dollars, there are 6008 things that you need to do. You would like you know what I mean? That sounds real

 It's not that much of a priority for me, that's

 It sounds really hard. Yeah. But if we make it easy, then people are more likely to take that next step on that journey, we need to make break it down to those little micro steps. Just the next thing, just the next thing, just the next thing, just the next thing.

 And the challenge I find with small businesses, and you know, and I've run, ran running a small business have run small businesses and have been involved with, like, a bit like you. And I've been involved with large, large businesses in general management roles. The thing that I see with small businesses is they try and do everything themselves. So they're trying to be the, because they're so good at it. Or they think they're so good at it. Yeah. And, and I made that mistake, you know, when I, when I had my very first business of my own, I tried to do too much on my own and, and failed at it. You know, it's it's much easier when you stick to what you're good at, and you get other people around. However, in small business, there's always this tension between how much do I spend and and how much can I generate through my own activity? And is there a, is there a profit if you're like in that exchange? And so I spend more time doing I really love to do what I'm good at? And I'll get somebody else in? Where is the in your experience with with business owners? Where's, where's the resistance for that?

 I think it's fear in some way. It's fear and valuing your time, more than anything else. I think we've all learned this lesson. I certainly I have. I spent, you know, again, with my tech background, I thought, when I started my current business, and that was eight years ago, I thought, you know, I'm pretty savvy, I can read code, I can probably work out how to deploy a WordPress website, hadn't done it before. And I spent eight hours trying to deploy this website and get it to work. And I just couldn't, for some reason I was doing something wrong, or I couldn't work it out. And I sent it off to a developer in the Ukraine that I've used a few times before. And I said, I just need you to get the WordPress installed, I will take care of the template and configuration, putting all the demo content on there that I can just then go and tweak. And anyway, he came back and said, Okay, look, I've done that. And I've done all those things, you said that you will take care of yourself. He was talking 28 minutes and cost me $7.15. Yeah, and I'd spent eight hours on this. And I think we haven't really understood when we do that the opportunity cost of doing so. Now that opportunity costs only applies if I'd spent that eight hours building relationship, you know, closing a sale, doing something also value. You know, in this case, probably just watching Netflix for 8 hours, which would have been more effective. And I would have been a better use of my time. But we do that as small business because the thing that we value when we start out more than anything else is is cash flow. We know right? When we it's been drilled into us as a unknown truth, that cash flow is king, right? That businesses die of cash flow. But what we haven't been taught to value is our time is the one thing we can't get back.

 That's you know, you are preaching to the converted here because it is such a it's a tough lesson to learn when when you focus on that cash flow and you and you you try and reserve as much of that as you possibly can. Because you're and I think you're right. It's that fear of running out of cash before the money comes in. But if you don't invest in the business, then the money never comes in because you continue to continue behind the eight ball over.

 You run out of you run out of runway. I know particularly particularly sort of coaching consulting businesses. We just think we can start them and that's that's it. One of the first business books I read was a book called Getting Started in consulting by Ellen Weiss. Now, Alan's a sort of multi million dollar consultant consults to sort of Fortune 100 companies and in the US and I still remember to this day Alan's website had a one by now button on it for his consulting program, which had a I don't think it's there anymore, I think is revamped it since but it was one one product For $750,000, which was just awesome, love the audacity. But you know, multi like he's written the consultant's Bible and a whole bunch of other books, multi Amazon bestseller as well. And so it's got the, the the credentials behind it as well. But one piece of advice in that book that I still remember and I wish I had learned sooner was when you start your business, start with work out what all your expenses are for 12 months, and put that much money aside. So that you can continue to pay yourself an income whilst you build up your client base. And I think often we don't do that. We say anything that obviously depends on the nature of your business. But we sink so much into our business, that we forget the most important thing that a business does, which is pay us an income. Yep. And we'll go for months and sometimes years, without paying ourselves the thing that we need to get by days today. And that, that one paradigm introduces such massive stress to you as a business owner, that you start making poor decisions about what it is that you should do you start working longer and harder than you should, you know, trying to make this thing work if it just squeeze the absolute life out. Yep.

 Yep. And, and for that, I absolutely agree with everything that you've said there, because I've lived it myself. And you just go, you know, wish I wish I, you know, mistakes around the decisions that were made with not enough information. And, you know, sometimes you wish you had a little bit more information. But again, you know, you, you and I wouldn't be in the situations where we're in at the moment without having all of that experience for the businesses that have gone beyond that. So they've managed to get off the ground, though. So they've hit the runway, they've, you know, they've managed to get the jet off the ground, and they're at 5000 10,000 feet, and they're still pumping along, but a little bit a little bit easier. And now the business owner is getting in the way of the business that to enable it to to scale. So what are the what are the, in your opinion, what are the issues now that so these, this is not now fear? Because they they're, they're off the ground, right? So they're hoping that they've got enough parachutes if something does go wrong, or build the parachute on the way if it fails, but from that point, what what what do you what do you see is the biggest barriers for this, the next phase of success,

 it's, it's probably letting go and having the courage to let go. If you have said to yourself, I will just do that, because I can do it quicker, and you get a better result. And even if you've already said this to yourself, when looking at either an employee's work, that's, that's the barrier, it's not actually giving yourself permission to let go and have someone else do that stuff. One of the things I challenge my clients to do a lot of when we look at what can be automated in your business is to draw what I call the genius pyramid. And it's broken into four sections. And so you write down every single task that the business does, from answering emails to phone calls, to paying bills to reconciling to sales calls to whatever, and put those tasks into one of these four zones, right, your genius zone, which is things that drive the business forward, you can do in your love doing doesn't seem like work to you, your expert zones and second one that's the stuff that drives the business forward and you can do it but you don't necessarily love then the next to your competence own stuff that you can do. Probably shouldn't do. And your incompetence own is stuff that if you're really honest with yourself, you just got no clue. Too often we find that we're doing stuff that we're just competent or incompetent left, which neither drives the business forward. We don't enjoy. We had to do them all day long. We probably shoot ourselves and go bloody work. And that's why we see this. This perpetuation of isn't you know, oh, my God, it's Monday tomorrow, I don't want to go to work. Because you don't want to go to work you do and stuff you don't, don't enjoy. Alright, and that sort of stuff, the pyramids upside down the reason that should be sorted sort of picture a pyramid, you know, big side at the bottom. The biggest space in that is the incompetent zone. And we spend too much time doing stuff that we don't know how to do. Hoping thinking that we're going to save a buck here and there. And pyramid should really be upside down. It should be we should be spending 80% of time and stuff that's drives the business forward and get rid of The rest of it. Yeah, which shall be outsourced to, you know, to to another to a staff member or, you know, a virtual assistant, it should be automated if it's a simple repetitive task, right? Or should be just, let's get rid of it altogether, we don't need to do that anymore.

 It's, it's interesting that like, if if you're a general manager working for a large organization, and your performance review came around, and they asked you what you were doing, and he said, Well, I'm, you know, I'm down there doing the accounts and on and I'm writing the putting the web site together and drafting the emails for the campaigns, you get sacked. One, you know, the the division performance would be atrocious, because you'd be the bottleneck in that role. But they just go, why have Why have we do we have a general manager, you know, when when you're doing all of that, and I think a lot of small businesses, they, they they feel as though they need to do that. But I totally agree with you, it's it's that control and letting go and not trusting the other person to be able to do the work that you've asked them to do. But if you give them the skills and the time to be able to do that you nurture their experience, then they and that's their passion, you know, it's what they love doing. And you find the right people to do that sort of work, then, then you're a team of genius. What's the plural of genius, genius?

 Absolutely, you're absolutely right, yeah, that you do start spending the time on the things that actually make the biggest impact on your business, which is ultimately going to be the quality of your decisions. And, and a major corporate, you know, the general manager or the CEO is just there to make important decisions, not work out how those decisions are executed, that somebody else down the line is. Absolutely that's their problem. And you're absolutely right, right, there is this transition that we have to make to go you know, what, I may not be able to do that as well as someone else. But I've suddenly just bought myself another 40 hours, a week of effective specialization. Now I keep coming back to Mrs. Nicholson, so shout out to Mrs. Nicholson for drumming this into me at year 12 economics. And this idea of effective specialization, that, whilst I may be able to do that better than you, you can't do the thing that I do better than me. Right? So you need to take care of that, and double or triple my output as a result of me working where my genius is.

 At Yeah, that's gold. We with, with that, I'm gonna switch tack a little bit here, but it's, um, it follows the same theme. So one of the things that I know that you focus on in, in a lot of the work that you do is around getting that automation, right. So or at least finding processes deciding whether they're actually needed, and whether they fit into the where they fit into the cadence of the of the business. what's what's the I mean, you know, for the, for the listener, who's going, you know, what am I what are the three things that I need to do to figure out whether I can get efficiencies that are, you know, how do I build efficiencies into the business? What would be your advice to them? 

 Listening is if you don't think you're gonna inefficiencies, stop thinking like that, because you will get efficiencies. I think what we are looking at is, when we, when we look at, like, it's the business case for automation, is there a process that either needs to be done it with efficiency, or time based, so someone logs onto my website and submits a sort of contact request at 1159. There's no one in the office to kind of suddenly go within five minutes and say, thanks very much for your inquiry, we'll get get back to you next business day. But automation can, which then enhances the customer experience and starts to set expectations with that customer. So good case for automation there. Likewise, if there's an activity that's done, that's a relatively simple activity, but it's done in high volume and prone to human error. That's another case for automation. So a good example of that I've got a client at the moment, James who runs a WooCommerce site, and every time there's a transaction through e commerce platform, we create an invoice in his xero account and manage the inventory, but also pass that information to his CRM, which now start to communicate to the customer. And again, managing set expectations. Now previously, that process was done manually. And often parts of that process fell down because it was was very, very manual. Okay, and now he's team just have to go and reconcile. Okay, okay, okay, okay. They don't have to do it, you know. So we've taken three, four hours worth of work today. And we've condensed that into, well, a $20, you know, bit of software. Yep. Now that's it for him. And so there's efficiencies and business and a business case to that. Now, conversely, if there was a thing that isn't time dependent, and doesn't happen frequently. And but it's potentially a complex thing, like a sales call, hopefully, a sales calls aren't too infrequent. That's not a good case for automation.

 Just a point on that we, I did some work in the human resource space. And we were talking about human resource management systems. So HRIS and the reason for introducing a system was to enable everything that you've talked about, the resistance that we got from them is that we got from the people who were who they felt that their job was being replaced by the system. But what we were able to prove was that they could then focus on those things that you were talking about, you know, the value add, that they were able to provide into the organization. And because they were freed up of the boring and administrative functions, that they were far more effective. Is that your experience as well?

 Yeah, absolutely. Yes, people re attached. I mean, as much as, as much as people don't like change, it's the one constant thing. But it is, and that's part of the change management process. I think whenever you introduce something new into a business, there will be a change management process involved. And there will be resistance from people who feel that part of their role, or part of their importance and contribution to that role, is going to be marginalized. And that's, you know, that's a personnel management. That's a change management process that just needs to be done. But again, we come back to as business owners, we need to look at creating this effective machine that delivers the outcome, we want it for us as owners or for shareholders, if the if the business is big enough, ironically, enough, we look at what we do on a micro level with our individual business in terms of when we start, we don't have any procedures or systems in place. And then we make lots of money, you know, and now an output we do have lots of systems and procedures in place. Largely, you know, if we look over the last 300 years of post Industrial Revolution, development, that's what we've as humanity that's what we've done over the last 300 years, we've systemized and proceduralized and use machinery to increase the efficiency and output of our, our effort. Now, 300 years ago, the idea of being employed wasn't really a thing, everyone was employed, self employed, you were the Craftsman you found the materials, you did the thing you did the sales and marketing, and then all of a sudden, we had bit of steam power. So we got beauty, we can do a machine that will make that part of my process a little bit more efficient. So I don't have to break my back, you know, scraping out the canoe, I've got a thing that does it for me or sewing or whatever it happens to be, I can, you know, I can do three or four of those per day rather than one of those per week, increase my output. And then we put the people in our factory and we had them all on a conveyor belt. And then we replaced the people on the conveyor belt with the head manual, passing things down the line with these rickety old machines that push product down the line and the people who are standing on the side, effectively just pick the stuff off that fell off the regular conveyor belt and put it back on. And that's very, I guess, analogous of how we build our own business to start without much systemization everything's very manual, we do all the parts. And then as we build it matures, and obviously a much smaller time frame than 300 years. Yeah, let's put in all this systemization this, this automation these, you know, we we take people off the conveyor belt and put them onto the button that says start and stop. And we move one level up overseeing the factory floor and making sure everything's working.

 Yeah, that's a that's a great image, I think to for everybody listening to you know, think about think about that their businesses. At the beginning it is without process and doing a lot of your own but as as it matures, as we as a society of mature you know, all of these bureaucracies have put in place But not, you know, with purpose, I think you're very much that of that nature as well as that, you know, you put processes in place not because you want to put a process in place, but you want to improve it, and there is an intention behind everything that you do. So I love that, Tim, thanks very much. In terms of your business, what are you? What are you? What's your, you know, the next five years for you? What have you, what are your visions?

 I think like everyone would constantly come back and re engineer it from time to time. So at the moment on, again, systemising, some of our delivery, that, that we'll be able to sort of help more people. So really looking at, you know, how do I deliver my products, you know, but then still create a bespoke custom solution for people, but now be able to do that at that scale. You know, that's one thing looking at when also looking at the I'm almost finished my first book, the last six chapters have been sitting there going, Please edit me for the last eight weeks. And, you know, so that's something I'll do and look again, for me, I want, you know, business side, they want to one of the things that drives me is to really see business owners succeed. And actually, as you said, you know, what mistakes are only making I love this quite easily, right mistakes are any decisions might not have information. And we I, you know, the thing we do is is so difficult, and we have to master so many skills and be aware of so many things both internally, but also externally as well, that if we don't play with the full deck, you know, our chances are we're all sabotaging our chances of success. And I realized that that's a passion of mine to see people succeed because they've got all the tools not in the absence of them.

 Yep. So Tim, just that that's, that's fabulous. And really looking forward to hearing more about the book. Just one last question, what do you what are you curious about?

 Okay, tough question. And lots of things is the answer to that. But one thing that that really came up for me lately, I guess is this, I guess, issue around mental health and I guess mental health for entrepreneurs, that we put ourselves under so much stress, and we take on so much stress, as entrepreneurs, what are the things that we're doing that can make us a little bit more resilient in the area of mental health and making sure that people look after themselves? So that's, that's something that seems to be coming up a lot for me lately. And in conversations I've had and this awareness of, I guess, that mental health space, so

 yeah, I I'm glad you said that, because it's something that's really passionate about as well. And in a previous interview, I had Dave Shillington, his ex Canberra, sorry, eastern suburbs, rugby league player, big burly front row forward and the vulnerability and and has just basically demonstrated that, that being vulnerable and open, and it's just such a freeing feeling. And you create a safe space for yourself. So yeah, we do as entrepreneurs or business owners. We do try to, you know, put out well, we do put ourselves under a lot of pressure. And yeah, I'm with you on that one.

 It's the ego that makes us capable of taking so many knocks also makes us invulnerable to accepting change.

 If you've enjoyed listening to Tim Hyde and his inspiring story, and you'd like to hear more of the same, all you need to do is subscribe, and you'll never miss out. You'll find all the links to Tim's website and the services of winmore clients in the show notes below. If you go to www dot winmore clients.com.au forward slash Connect Tim has graciously offered to provide you with a complimentary consultation and some valuable information. Tim spoke about business owners having the courage to let go of control to accelerate and scale their business. If you'd like help developing a strategy and plan to do just that, and you're ready to go from the Do It Yourself model to the do it with you strategy. Thing connect with me for a complimentary call My deep dive analysis and the intentional roadmap strategy is a tried and proven program ready for you to implement. My name is Stephen Sandor from inspiring business. And there are plenty of additional resources on our website at www dot inspiring business.net and we are across all the socials. Thank you for listening to the inspiring business podcast and my wishes to inspire and energize